13:00:09 I am just going to. Hit record.
13:00:16 All right, and good afternoon everybody. So I know we still have a lot of participants filtering in, but we're gonna get started since I want to really try to keep this to an hour.
13:00:26 So thank you to everyone who's logging on and obviously thank you to our panelists.
13:00:32 I'm going to do some brief introductions to start and then we'll segue into a short video and then we'll get really into our discussion about why it's so great to clerk.
13:00:41 At a state court, then this court in particular. We'll talk a little bit about the value of clerking, both from the judge's perspective and from the clerk's perspective.
13:00:50 And then we'll go into some details and tips on applying with some specific details about applying to our accord.
13:00:57 As it does differ from state to state. So let me just get right to the introductions.
13:01:02 We're very pleased to have with us first here, Justice Delilah Wendland.
13:01:07 Justice Winland, has been on the SGC since 2020. I'm was originally appointed to the appeals court in 2017.
13:01:15 A graduate of Illinois or Bonna Champaign, she obtained her master's from MIT in 1,993, followed by a law degree from Stanford in 96 where she graduated with the highest honors and she herself clerked for Justice John Walker on the second circuit after graduating from law school.
13:01:35 Before she joined Ropes and Grey, I, 1997 where she eventually rose to, become partner of their IP litigation division.
13:01:43 Also with us is current law clerk Christina Chamoreva who clerks currently for Justice Georges.
13:01:49 Christina is a recent graduate of Suffolk University Law School here in Massachusetts where she was lead articles editor on law review and she previously earned her bachelors from Umass Boston.
13:02:01 And then our former law clerk who's joining us today to give us her post clerking perspective is Chinaria Monze.
13:02:13 She is a former law clerk to Chief Justice Bud. And Generi is a recent graduate of Harvard Law, where she was the co-editor-in-chief of Harvard's negotiation law review.
13:02:20 She earned her bachelors from Duke University, clerk for Chief Justice But this The last term, 22 to 23, and she's now an associate at Latham and Watkins in Washington, DC.
13:02:32 And my name is Meredith Shi. I am the career clerk and special assistant to Chief Justice Bud.
13:02:35 So I do wanna jump in, before we really get to the panel portion of it to a short video that's pre recorded.
13:02:43 I'll give one caveat that the video is, it's taken from a visitors video we have here.
13:02:49 So some of the discussion might seem a little odd as it's trying to get you to come walk through the court, but it does give a nice brief history of the court itself, show you some of the building.
13:02:58 So I am going to start that. Now and then I'll talk just a little bit about it.
13:03:04 Once the video concludes. So if you'll bear with me, I will get that.
13:03:07 Going now.
13:03:12 Hello. Welcome to the historic John Adams Courthouse, home of the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court, the Massachusetts appeals court, and the Social Law Library.
13:03:24 I am Kimberly Bud, Chief Justice of the Supreme Judicial Court. The film you're about to see will introduce you to our beautiful courthouse.
13:03:34 You will explore some of the pivotal moments in our court's remarkable history, which spans over 3 centuries.
13:03:42 You'll also hear 5 former justices discuss the critical role that our applicant courts play in preserving the rule of law.
13:03:50 And protecting individual rights. And if you'd like to see our courts in action, I invite you to view oral arguments either here at the courthouse when possible or on line.
13:04:01 And now, please enjoy the film.
13:04:07 You. Welcome to the John Adams Courthouse. The John Adams Courthouse. The John Adams Courthouse stands as a symbol for the ideals of justice.
13:04:40 The John Adams Courthouse stands as a symbol for the ideals of justice enshrined in the Massachusetts Constitution, the oldest written constitution still in use in the world.
13:06:19 The Supreme Judicial Court rejected their arguments. In a very famous case called Roberts vs. City of Boston are Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court upheld separate but equal.
13:06:36 The separate but equal doctrine ignored the fact that schools for black children lacked basic resources afforded to schools for most white children.
13:06:46 Decades later the nation followed suit. The United States Supreme Court used the Roberts case as a basis for Pesi versus Ferguson, which was the case that stood for separate but equal.
13:07:00 It wasn't until 1954 in Brown vs Board of Education that the United States Supreme Court finally rejected the separate but equal doctrine that the United States Supreme Court finally rejected the separate but equal doctrine.
13:07:13 Because of the structure of our Constitution, everyone has certain rights that they can turn to the courts to look for protection.
13:07:22 For example, in the Goodridge vs Department of Public Health case, we looked to the Constitution and concluded that would include the right to marry the person that you choose.
13:07:35 States are finding fertile ground for protecting individual liberties including the right to same-sex marriage which our Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court adopted years before the United States Supreme Court.
13:07:53 For over 3 centuries, decisions by the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court have had a profound influence on the nation.
13:08:01 The 20 first century brings new challenges, as courts resolve disputes concerning public safety and our fundamental rights to privacy and free speech.
13:08:13 This supreme judicial court makes decisions that impact every citizen in Massachusetts and sometimes the entire rest of the world. Today's court continues to rule on vital cases that shape our lives.
13:08:32 Massachusetts is the home of the independent judiciary in America. This building in all of its splendor embodies that home and makes it real and exciting.
13:08:45 Both historically speaking and looking into the future. I would like visitors to the John Adams courthouse to leave celebrating our form of constitutional democracy.
13:08:58 Ours is an extraordinary form of democracy. It is one of our greatest gifts to the world.
13:09:19 All right. So just a short sort of summary of obviously what is a very long history of this court, but I wanted to flag it because of course there are a number of influential decisions over time that have come out of this court.
13:09:36 Some not always positive, but regardless, Massachusetts and the SGC have always been an important court, not just for Massachusetts, but across the nation.
13:09:44 And not reflected in that video because it is a few years old. But our court just recently issued another what I would call a landmark decision.
13:09:52 You some of you may have heard of it called Commonwealth First Mattis, where this court held it unconstitutional under the Massachusetts Constitution to sentence, 1, 19, and 20 year olds to life without the possibility of parole.
13:10:07 So in short, it's always an exciting time to work at a possibility of parole. So in short, it's always an exciting time to work at a state Supreme Court. So in short, it's always an exciting time to work at a state Supreme Court.
13:10:13 And so we're going to move on to the panel and a few facts about state courts, but I forgot to mention the Q&A function is live. I see we already got one question.
13:10:18 We're gonna have time at the end to answer as many as we can. And those we don't get to, I am going to drop, an email address into the chat that you can reach out.
13:10:26 For any questions that go unanswered just due to time. So very briefly a couple things before we get to our panel questions.
13:10:34 I just want to share a few facts about state courts that some of our attendees may not be aware of.
13:10:39 We know that law schools tend to focus very heavily on federal law and federal courts. But as of 2,019 one of the most accurate stats that I could find is that nearly 99% of all cases filed in the United States are filed in state courts.
13:10:55 So that's a approximately 83 million new state court filings in 2,019 alone compared to the roughly 376,000 cases filed in federal district courts.
13:11:06 And state courts do hear nearly every kind of subject matter from criminal law to complex civil litigation admin law, land use, voting issues.
13:11:16 Probate issues and of course constitutional issues. And on that topic, specifically the unique thing about. State courts is that, you know, Massachusetts, like most states has their own state constitution.
13:11:28 And state courts are the final arbiters of state constitutional claims. Our constitution here in Massachusetts often affords more protection than the federal constitution.
13:11:40 And any one of these topics that I mentioned, of course, can contain both federal and state claims within them.
13:11:47 Such as, you know, a sort of a frequent flyer here, statutory interpretation of federal medicaid laws for example very complicated body of law and how those laws are sort of effectuated and applied in Massachusetts.
13:12:00 So you can have a mix of all these different claims in state court alone. And I think in recent years we've really sort of been able to peel back the curtain on the outsized role that state courts play.
13:12:11 State courts are critical, to resolving voting issues and local and by trickle up in national elections, as was mentioned in the video by Justice Hines.
13:12:21 They're important to protecting civil liberties. Reproductive rights, workplace rights. And everything to do with state administration.
13:12:29 So everything from, you know, how your local schools get funded to housing rights, really everything that has to do with your daily functioning and whichever state that you live in.
13:12:37 So state courts really a hotbed of action, at any, any way you look at it.
13:12:42 And so now let's turn a little bit to our panelists discussion and get kind of into the details about clerking specifically.
13:12:49 And what it's like to work at the SJC. So Justice Wenland, if we can start with you.
13:12:57 I'd love if you can just briefly, I know I mentioned it in your bio, but discuss your, you know, path what brought you to the court and kind of a little bit about the nature of the work here at the SJC.
13:13:05 Sure. Thank you Meredith for inviting me to join this panel today. It's really exciting.
13:13:10 Add to talk about something that's really near and dear to my heart, which is clerking and really clerking at the state court level.
13:13:19 So who am I? I started my career. After I did a brief fellowship at death penalty clinic with the clerk.
13:13:29 I think in New York City for the honorable John and Walker junior. And it was there that I sort of realized the benefits of clerking.
13:13:38 Which was really to be able to see firsthand the type of work product that big firms from all over the country were submitting.
13:13:48 To that court and also being able to see the quality and caliber of oralists every month.
13:13:58 Some good, some fantastic and some not so great. But I think the key benefit that I took away from clerking, which I carry with me, you know, some, 25 years later, is really developing that mentorship relationship with my judge.
13:14:13 He's now gone on senior status, but we talk at least annually and it's definitely one of the most valuable professional relationships.
13:14:24 I have, developed. So that's where I started off. As meredith said i followed that clerkship with a stint of about 20 years at a large, law firm in Boston.
13:14:41 I had been an engineer before I turned to law and so I married engineering with long and did a substantial amount of work and patent litigation and ended up becoming.
13:14:53 The leader of the IP litigation group of the firm I joined which is so that's my path to the bench.
13:15:06 After 20 years, I decided I really wanted to invest in public service. And the way I wanted to do that was going back.
13:15:16 To do what my judge had done, which was to be a judge. Yeah, so I applied and in 2,017 the governor appointed me to the appeal court.
13:15:24 And and then in 2020, the same governor appointed me to the Supreme judicial court.
13:15:31 And I've been here, ever since. The nature of our work, Meredith at the SJC, as you know, is, varied.
13:15:42 It really involves the gambit of things. You were talking about Medicare. I'm currently drafting a case on that very issue.
13:15:54 Also constitutional issues, you know, like in the Mattis case, what is cruel or unusual punishment under the state.
13:16:01 Constitution. I think the benefit, and one of the things that I see in our job here at the state level is to use the Supreme Court's jurisprudence as a base and then think really hard as to whether or not our citizens in Massachusetts really have historic basis or even a socially evolving basis for more constitutional rights.
13:16:30 And so To do that, we don't just, you know, figure out what our own best policy would be.
13:16:38 We look at the brief, we look at the the arguments being made both by the parties at hand and also by Mickey, and consider seriously.
13:16:48 And what. The state of the law should be. In Massachusetts for the people of the Commonwealth.
13:16:57 So I do that. The other aspect of my work is committee work. And in particular, the Chief Justice has asked me to lead on issues of race and racism and sentencing.
13:17:14 And to do a deep dive into what is the cause of that, how we can make. Tomorrow better than today.
13:17:25 And not stand still in any way. On issues of race. And then the other, committee that I lead up is springing our IT.
13:17:36 Our computer based infrastructure. To the 20 first century, as somebody who was in private practice for 2 decades.
13:17:50 I really was spoiled with having all sorts of gadgets at my fingertips and went into 2,017 I joined the Massachusetts Judiciary.
13:17:56 I was really shocked. At how far behind we were on electronic filing and access to documents when you're remote and online things that were really important to me as a mother of 3 kids.
13:18:10 I've always worked remotely. And in the law firm and as a judge and I thought that it would behoove the judiciary to make that available.
13:18:22 And so that was a mission. It really got a fast forward in 2020, when everybody had to be remote because of COVID.
13:18:29 19. But we're not stopping there. We're continuing to move on. So that's about it.
13:18:35 Thank you.
13:18:35 Great. Well, thank you for that description and especially about your committee work because and something I neglected to mention, but.
13:18:41 You know, in addition to making all of the legal precedent. In the state of Massachusetts, the SJC is also the superintendent basically of all the lower courts.
13:18:50 So what Justice Wenland was describing on her committee work is sort of part of what I would maybe describe as this giant umbrella of access to justice efforts that the court makes to sort of how can we improve.
13:19:00 The judicial system, the entire judiciary. Both in the laws and literally how everyone accesses the courts.
13:19:09 And how we can continue to improve that. So thank you for that. Justice Weinch, can you also talk a little bit about from your perspective what role your law curs law clerks play in sort of all of the work that you do and how they support your work.
13:19:23 Sure. So for me, in my own chambers, the clerks are really the life of the chambers.
13:19:31 I depend on my clerks most principally to think. With me. As you make No, most of the issues that the SJC chooses to weigh in on are issues of first impression either for the Commonwealth or for the nation.
13:19:47 And so there is not an answer. And so we need to work together to think about what would be.
13:19:56 The right next step for our state. And so I've principally use my clerks.
13:20:03 As people who I can share thoughts with. And who can share their thoughts? With me. My clerks do the principal writing in my chambers.
13:20:16 Don't usually do my first draft. And I after thinking and figuring out what the answer is and my clerks go back and they write the opinion for oneland J.
13:20:33 And then we go back and forth and we work tweak it. Sometimes they have thoughts as you may know when you write something down.
13:20:42 It causes you to really focus on the logic of your argument. And sometimes after writing it, the clerk comes back and says, hey, you know, we thought this could go like this, but it turns out, we, really can't make that work consistent with the law.
13:20:58 We'd have to make a big step forward. So I use my clerks in that way and I do also pull each one of 5 2 clerks and so I pull each one of them onto my committee work. And so I, pull each one of them onto, my committee work.
13:21:17 One is on the race committee work. One is on the I pull each one of them onto, my committee work.
13:21:29 One is on the race committee and the other, is on the IT, at an event, my curse come with me, and they also help me draft, the speeches for that.
13:21:30 Wonderful. Sounds like they're very busy. Thank you for that description. I'll pivot a little bit now to Christina from your perspective, sort of dovetailing right off that.
13:21:40 Can you tell, everyone, you know, what's it like from your perspective? What's sort of the day in the life of a law clerk here at the SJC?
13:21:46 Sure. So about, 90% of our time is spent on drafting opinions and assisting Justice George's in preparation for oral arguments.
13:21:55 Researching. Certain issues for him. But we also do, we also supervise our interns, which I, it's part of my life I find very rewarding actually something that I did not expect going in.
13:22:09 Part of it is because we're only about 2 years away from them. So it's, it's always fun and they're really smart people and they and they help us a lot.
13:22:19 We rely on them, to get our job done. But we also participate in the hiring process with, our Chambers admin Matt.
13:22:28 And this was, a great experience for me as well because I got to see how, someone conducts the interview, what questions they ask.
13:22:37 What's even like what's important for the interview or what skills they're looking for. We also attend, oral arguments and, just as George's likes to have a postsemble meetings where we all get together.
13:22:53 Including our interns and we talk about what happened that day. So that's very, educational and we also have our weekly, chambers meetings as just as Whenland, noted.
13:23:05 Sometimes you start writing something and things don't go the way you expect and this is our opportunity to, ask the team for their opinion on something that we're drafting.
13:23:16 And, seek some help and advice. Yeah.
13:23:16 So we So would you say that most of your time is primarily spent? Researching and writing? Okay.
13:23:23 I would say so, yes.
13:23:27 And taking a little step in reverse, what, were some of the reasons that, motivated you to apply to be a clerk.
13:23:36 What interested you in this role?
13:23:36 Professional development, mostly, well, I, okay, I was also an intern and I loved being an intern at the SGC so much that I actually stayed for 2 semesters.
13:23:48 It was a it was a great experience and I got to, I like research and writing. So I get to work on issues that very important, very complex.
13:23:57 Something, something that you don't get to do. As a new lawyer or like even a law student.
13:24:06 Also, law school does not focus in state law and I knew that I was gonna stay in Massachusetts and I wanted to learn more about it.
13:24:14 And then I also developed a good working relationship with Justice George's, who's a great person, just a fantastic person to know.
13:24:23 And he is a great mentor. So I enjoy, working with him very much.
13:24:27 That's great. You know, you talked a lot about just how valuable you find the, supervision of the interns.
13:24:34 As a rewarding experience is there something else in addition to that in your work like what would you say you find most valuable about your work as a law clerk?
13:24:44 Something that I don't think I fully realized when I first started. I think that as As a new lawyer, you always feel the pressure, like you have to know the right answer.
13:24:56 And just, as Whenland just said that there are no right answers, right? That could be a good answer.
13:25:02 If some answers are better than others and you get comfortable with not knowing. And, when, and that's from coming from experience from some of my friends who are already, at law firms.
13:25:15 New associates feel the need to provide that perfect right answer. And when you're a lower clerk, you, you don't have that need.
13:25:23 You get to, read, you get to explore, you get to discuss, but, ultimately you get to get there together with your team.
13:25:34 And I think that's, that's a very, Yep, valuable experience and it's also good for mental health.
13:25:40 That's such a fabulous description. Thank you for sharing that. If I can pivot now to Generi, just to hear a little bit on the other side of the curtain after leaving can you just discuss a little bit about your, your experience clerking and now life after clerking?
13:25:56 Sure, happy to. I love clerking. I think as, most people do, I can't think of a better way to have started my legal career.
13:26:05 I felt like For me, it was, you know, legal research and writing. Times 20. And that's been so valuable.
13:26:16 Me now as I've moved into working at a law firm in a different kind of practice, I think Kind of the 3 skills that I see every day following me from my cloud shift into the work I do now are One thoroughness.
13:26:30 I think that's something. A little trial by fire in your first few months. Clerking where it's like okay so I've looked you know, into the case of looking to the issue, there's my answer.
13:26:41 And then because there are so many brilliant people who work at the SDC. It's like, well, did you consider this?
13:26:45 Did you consider that? And it's like, I did not. So then you go back and you do further research and I feel like now in the work that I do.
13:26:54 I know that there's more to look for and I know where to look for it. And so when I'm getting an answer to a client or to a partner, I know to say, okay, this is what I looked at.
13:27:04 Maybe I didn't find too much here, but I also looked here and I was looked here and I also checked this.
13:27:09 And that has helped me a lot in these first few months. And my new role, I think also again, the writing, I just can't speak to how important it is to get that practice.
13:27:19 I feel like. Even though law school did teach me a lot about legal research and writing, I think the sort of clerkship education on the legal research and writing is a bit incomparable.
13:27:29 I think in all kinds of writing, yes. I wrote, helped craft opinions, but also a quick email memo to the chief to say, hey, this is what I'm looking at.
13:27:39 What do you think about this? How to communicate what I'm finding in a way that's clear and succinct and allows someone else to just pick it up and say.
13:27:47 Okay, I understand what this person is saying. I trust that they've looked in all the, you know, right places.
13:27:52 They've checked all the valid sources and based on this like email I can tell them what to do next or where to go next.
13:27:58 And so now my day to day, I'm not directing opinions, obviously, but I do send a lot of like memorandums or quick emails.
13:28:06 Trying to communicate things to clients and so that sort of lesson in writing communication oral communication has been really really important.
13:28:14 And I think nuance sort of seeing things from a variety of sides is another skill that is helping me every day and the work I do now.
13:28:22 I actually had a Coffee with a partner I was working with and off handfully said, oh I think you know the other side might mention XYZ.
13:28:31 And she was like, oh, that's actually a really good thought. Like run with that. And I was.
13:28:36 Really excited about that. I was encouraged by that. And I think because when you are working for the court, you're reading goal side, you're trying to understand what both sides are arguing.
13:28:47 You kind of bring that with you when you are, you know, representing. Only one side of an issue now.
13:28:52 So yeah, I mean, I think my collection follows me all the time. It's really helped me start off on a good foot in this new role.
13:28:59 So. I loved it. Highly recommend.
13:29:02 Thank you for all that information. Can I ask a follow-up question? Because you're practicing in DC now, and obviously you went to law school up here in Massachusetts, but then departed left us, which I'm so sad about after your clerkship.
13:29:17 Do you feel that doing a state courtship in Massachusetts in any way kind of hindered. You know, knowing that you were gonna start your practice in DC, do you feel like that was, you know, inhibitor or a downside to that?
13:29:26 Not at all. So as Mary said, I knew going into clerks of applications that I was going to make my way back to DC.
13:29:35 I'm from the DC area. My family lives here had a lot of personal reasons for wanting to be back in DC.
13:29:39 But when I was looking at clerkships, I did not limit myself geographically at all.
13:29:44 I think like just this one that said I look for who is the best person to learn from? Who am I gonna want to, you know, pick up the phone and call when I'm 5, 10 years into my practice.
13:29:54 Like who's gonna be the best teacher? And so that's how I, I made my list and absolutely no regrets.
13:30:00 The chief is amazing. She's an excellent boss, an excellent mentor. And so Nope, not at all.
13:30:07 I mean, as long as the reading and writing is pretty much what everyone is concerned about and you can do that anywhere from any state.
13:30:14 So. Nope.
13:30:15 Great. And obviously, you know, you talked a lot about sort of skills that you use now in practice that you kind of gained from your clerkship.
13:30:23 Is there, you know, one thing that you kind of miss most about clerking, just being in the 2 different settings.
13:30:30 I do, I really miss like thinking about Issue the first impression, complicated legal issues. There's a lot to say, you know, work that firms do is not complicated, but I think especially at the trial level, it's a lot more emotions practice or things like that.
13:30:47 It's not. You know, what does this statute mean? What is the history of Massachusetts and how should that inform what we do next?
13:30:55 When it comes to public health or juvenile justice or you know personal safety. I felt like I had time to like sit and think and really wrestle with new issues that did not have an answer.
13:31:11 When I was clerking, I don't do as much of that. Now, do other things, but I do miss just sitting and thinking about these really large complicated issues that are going to affect a whole people.
13:31:24 I love seeing how. Law-shaped people's lives and I think clerking is a really good way to do that.
13:31:29 Wonderful, thank you. So I wanna talk now a little bit about, applying to our court.
13:31:36 And just to lay out some basic information. Again, because I mentioned really every state court kind of does this differently.
13:31:42 And so we'll have much more detailed information on our website soon. The sort of key dates to keep in mind for our court is that we usually open our application period in April, the beginning of April, and it stays open until June.
13:31:56 Which is when actual hiring and interviewing and all of that starts. So there's a long sort of window in which to get your materials in.
13:32:07 But we always recommend that you apply as early as possible. Don't wait till the end of that window is usually not advantageous.
13:32:14 And the application materials again, which will be listed online, are fairly straightforward, right? It's it's a resume, it's your transcript.
13:32:22 Whenever that becomes available in the writing sample and letters of reference like that's the core of what's going to be submitted there's nothing too surprising or tricky in there and our court uses what we call like a pool system which is that all of the, and our court uses what we call like a pool system, which is that all of the applications come in and all of the justices see them.
13:32:48 So, you know, it is possible to apply directly to a chamber. But regardless all of the applications are gonna come through a centralized process that we list on our website.
13:32:58 And, you know, I usually recommend that people just apply to the court. For a couple of reasons one being that you know it's sort of someone had phrased at one time as like it's you sort of want the judge to pick the clerk as opposed to the other way around because it's part of it is a bit of a personality fit.
13:33:13 But also, you know, if you, if you want to be selected, which is completely fine.
13:33:15 Again, because of our system because everyone sees all the applications, you may be unnecessarily limiting yourself. If you do that because another judge will see, okay, well, you didn't wanna work for me. I don't know me.
13:33:26 I like your qualifications, but maybe I'll move on to someone else. So we do sort of recommend that you just apply to the court generally.
13:33:34 But yes, so our process is basically pretty centralized. Justice Wenlett, can you share with us, you know, what are some of the attributes that you look for in a lawpler candidate when you're looking at these applications.
13:33:47 But I think you heard from, Christina and Chanieri that 90% of the job, if not more, is writing.
13:33:54 And so, one of the things that we have. I guess a slot for in our application is your writing sample and so I read and the writing samples quite closely to see if this person, this applicant.
13:34:14 Has made a persuasive argument. It doesn't the subject matter is completely irrelevant. And we just want to know if the writer is able to clearly Tell somebody who is not.
13:34:27 You know, immersed in this genre, what they are saying and say it clearly and succinctly and succinctly and to sort of get to the point.
13:34:38 And so I spent a lot of time reading. The writing samples. I also look for indicators of good writing, right?
13:34:47 So, you know, some schools you write on to the long review. And so that's important.
13:34:55 And if that's something that somebody has done, whether it's the law review or another journal also.
13:35:01 Is something, that I'm looking for. And, you know, over the years one gets to know sound professors.
13:35:10 And so I also look for some professors. And so I also look for, strong, ers. And so I also look for, strong recommendations, from law school professors.
13:35:23 And if the person has the benefit of having worked for a few years before applying, strong recommendations, from law school professors.
13:35:33 And if the person has the benefit of having worked for a few years before applying, I also look for recommendations from their employer. I'm looking at their resume to see what, is the story?
13:35:36 Why is the supreme judicial court implying to us what is it How do we fit into that story?
13:35:39 Can I be helpful? No, actually this person in their future career. That doesn't mean that this person wants to be an IP litigator.
13:35:48 It just means are there experiences that I've developed over the last 3 decades of professional professionally working as a lawyer and now a judge that I can you know, help.
13:36:02 Because I do think of my clerks as part of my family. I know law schools tell students about applying to a judge only if you're gonna say yes and I now understand that because for the judge it is such a personal decision or at least for me it is a really personal decision to invite somebody into my family.
13:36:26 See that decision on extending the offer to. As an extending an offer for a lifetime. I'm going to be with you through whatever changes I'm going to throw at you.
13:36:39 Fellowship applications that come my way. And I want you to be part of that whenland family.
13:36:46 And so I see it as a commitment. And so I'm looking for that story. Like how do I fit into this person's, overall narrative.
13:36:54 And so I take it from that. I forgot to mention this, but we also require cover letters. Some which are more sparse than others.
13:37:01 Do you read the cover letters when you look at applications?
13:37:03 I do and I hate to say this but I might as well be candid. I look to the cover letter not to sort of sell the candidate and I'm looking at it for typos.
13:37:15 I really have just sort of you know if you can't be bothered to spell wendland which I you know grant you with the mouthful correctly then you know that that might be that might suggest that you're not the careful thoughtful writer that I need.
13:37:31 And so I'm usually not looking for any, you know, incredible pros or somebody who says, you know, I did this and that and the other because they get that from their resume.
13:37:40 I'm just really looking for the cover letter to sort of. See if they've given me some professional looking, letter, that explains.
13:37:55 Yeah.
13:37:53 Somewhat. Why they want why they're applying. Yeah, but yeah, but that's to me and I think that's so cruel but we get so many applications but you know if somebody's got a typo in their letter, I, that's not a good thing, but same with their resume.
13:38:11 Yeah, and are there so are there any other sort of pitfalls and it might even be an application or in the interview process that stand out.
13:38:17 You know, I've imagine there's a lot of typos in the writing sample as well is probably something you read closely for.
13:38:23 Right. Yeah, I mean, some you have to be a good proofer, I think, in order to work.
13:38:27 For a judge it's really an important skill it's it's important to skill as a lawyer and this you know if this is your first job out of law school and you need to be Yeah, professional in the way you approach it, which means, your client, when you're applying to your clerkship is yourself. You know, so sell yourself.
13:38:50 Don't sell yourself short. And, and make sure that you've done, that kind of proof.
13:38:57 I know that when I read my own work product, I often read what is actually not there. And so, I often will have.
13:39:06 You know, I recommend to people that they have somebody else look at their resume critically or look at their writing sample critically and the same with the cover letter.
13:39:16 And one final question. Are there any particular courses or classes that you look for in a transcript that are kind of either a must have for you or classes that you look for in a transcript that are kind of either a must have for you or classes that you look for in a transcript that are kind of either a must have for you or at least.
13:39:29 Maybe bump up the applicant for you.
13:39:31 Not really because I'm more interested in the person that the course selection. I mean, usually your first year is no choice.
13:39:39 And so the course selection will come more in that second year and third year and and that's just sort of tells me a little bit of their interest.
13:40:01 And that's just sort of tells me a little bit of their interest, you know, like some people might be taking employment law or what their story is, but I'm not looking for beyond having, the basics of what most law schools require, you know, towards contracts and corporations is a good one, especially, where we do get a lot of business law cases.
13:40:16 But not, you know, I wouldn't ding somebody because they didn't take tax.
13:40:21 Yeah.
13:40:21 And although having said that, I took tax my third year and I loved it. There's so much tax policy.
13:40:28 Who knew? Anyway, so I just wanna, you know, something that, you know, tells me what you're interested in.
13:40:32 Great, thank you so much. And Christina and Chaniri, maybe we'll start in the same order we went before with Christina.
13:40:40 Are there any details or tips you can share about how you put together? Maybe when you reached out to recommenders, things like that.
13:40:49 So beyond what Justice Bland already said, I really thought about who I wanted my, to write letters or recommendation for me.
13:40:59 And I, I can, speak from my own experience. So I picked one clinical professor because she knew me in a work setting.
13:41:06 She knew how I interacted with my peers. So I picked one clinical professor because she knew me in a work setting. She knew how I interacted with my peers.
13:41:13 She knew me from to my ability to, work with the clients. Adhere to the deadlines, communicate.
13:41:19 And then I also picked a professor. Whom I took I think 3 law school courses from and the reason why I picked her is because she knew me from one L, right?
13:41:32 So like she was my civil, but then beyond that, I also took, a, like a paper class from her.
13:41:41 So she could speak about my. Writing and research skills. I also participated in one of her seminars so she could she could talk about my contributions in the classroom from that side so I would really, really take a more holistic approach.
13:41:58 Do not focus on like, oh, I got, really take a more, holistic approach.
13:42:04 Do not focus on like, oh, I got one, like I took that one L class and I got an A towards, but that professor might not have been remember you.
13:42:08 Pick people who actually have something to say about you as a person. And for the resume, I think that The best one, I think the only way for anyone to really see who you are is do not discount your hobbies and interests and things that and your community engagement because that's your that's your human side.
13:42:22 Let people really see what you like and what you're passionate about, not just where you worked.
13:42:28 So that's Just what I think.
13:42:30 Great, thank you. Can you hear anything to add?
13:42:33 Yeah, I'll just I'll just add a little bit. I think like Christina I did a clinical professor, a black letter law professor, and a seminar professor.
13:42:43 My thinking being they could all speak to different. All things that have to do with being a lawyer, the different aspects of it.
13:42:50 So my black letter law professor could speak to engaging. With the law, I didn't write a paper.
13:42:57 You can write a memo. We just had, you know, our final exam, but how I showed up in class, like how I thought about the cases we were going over, how I could present them.
13:43:05 And then like with Christina Clinical, working with clients, the ability to be. Autonomous?
13:43:10 I think like just this one that says it is a job. And so that's important to be able to manage your own schedule, be on top of things, be professional, you know, be someone's important to be able to manage your own schedule, be on top of things, be professional, you know, be someone's employee.
13:43:29 I think in terms of timeline. I think I started early. If your law school does have a sort of process they suggest for the collector process, I would definitely recommend following that.
13:43:38 I know minded and it was very helpful and they sort of gathered that over years of experience but I think I started reaching out for recommendation letters.
13:43:45 After spring break. And then. Applications. I said when.
13:43:52 This court's application opens, but they tend to like open and close around June. And then after that, things proceed very quickly.
13:43:59 And so. By the second week of June. I had everything together. So my, recommendation, my writing sample, my cover letters.
13:44:08 My resume. And so that I would just say try to have things together maybe by the first week of June because it does.
13:44:15 Proceed really really fast. You like submit all your stuff and then you get all these emails and phone calls like can we talk to you right now?
13:44:22 We interview right now. And so. Need to be on top of that. And then I think the other thing I would say is just.
13:44:28 I had a Excel spreadsheet to keep track of everything. I think different. Judges and different courts want to see different things.
13:44:36 And so that was something that kind of took me by surprise, honestly, when I started applying.
13:44:41 I thought it would be more of a L school application situation where you can just send the same materials to everyone.
13:44:46 That is not the case. Some people want more or less letters of recommendation. They want you know, a 10 page writing sample or they want a 20 page writing sample.
13:44:55 And so I would just, you know. Try to get together as controls you need for. Where you're interested in.
13:45:05 Hmm.
13:45:01 Obviously, I highly recommend the materials needed for the SDC, but. You know, I think, trying to get that together like April, May is what I did.
13:45:10 Great, thank you. I'll add just a few quick tips. And hopefully this will also answer a bunch of our questions.
13:45:17 In the Q&A. But as everyone's saying, try to get your materials together and in early.
13:45:25 We specifically say on our website if your official transcript is not ready yet don't worry. Send your materials along because we know all of the schools move at a different pace and you could be waiting on one professor to finish grading, you know, your classes grades and that's holding everything up.
13:45:38 So we really want to encourage you to just get all of your materials to us that you have. And then you can just send along the transcript when it becomes available.
13:45:46 So we recommend applying really as early as you can. As Generi mentioned, once, once the, hiring period opens, it moves very quickly.
13:45:58 And the judges do hire on a rolling basis, you know each judge is hiring for 2 law clerks.
13:46:04 Some judges could have that done in a couple of days. Some of them, it could take them a week or 2.
13:46:09 So it, you know, there's just no way to tell. And it's good to just be there be in line and not be rushing to get your information in at the eleventh hour.
13:46:17 You do not need to be a citizen to a clerk at the SDC. You do need to be a citizen to a clerk at the SDC. You do need to be authorized to work in the United States.
13:46:25 You do need to be a citizen to a clerk at the SDC. You do need to be authorized to work in the United States.
13:46:35 You do need to live in Massachusetts for the time of your clerkship, which, you know, even though we have somewhat of a hybrid setup nowadays, it's still, you know, it just sort of goes part and parcel with obviously being here at the courthouse and doing the work in person.
13:46:50 But you cannot reside for those of you who are somewhat local. You can't reside in Providence, Rhode Island and drive across the border and commute for work. You do need to live in Massachusetts while you're clerking here.
13:47:04 Somebody asked about addressing the cover letter and One other thing I wanted to mention, and maybe want to ask justice 1 one her opinion on this, but when it comes to writing samples.
13:47:08 I, you know, looking at the applications, I do see sometimes people, will submit journal articles.
13:47:16 You know, or notes, the note that they have prepared for their journal or legal writing requirement.
13:47:20 Do you have an opinion, Justice Wenland, on sort of the strength of that kind of writing sample versus something that's a little bit more of a clear-cut, you know, legal memo analyzing a question and an answer kind of thing.
13:47:33 I actually don't. I mean, I think that you should submit whatever it is that you think.
13:47:39 Showcases your best writing. And then, you know, Yeah, I think Christina mentioned this, you know, interest in hobbies.
13:47:51 I mean, what you submit about will inevitably be a subject of conversation during our interview. And it'll be, you know, if it's some dry memorandum that you thought would best showcase your legal writing.
13:48:01 And it doesn't really lead to a really interesting conversation. But if it's a note that you're really excited about, or, you know, your opinion on, you know, I don't know, gun control or whatever it is, you know, that you're really jazzed about.
13:48:14 It will lead to a more interesting interview conversation. So just make sure there's no typos and the grammar is correct.
13:48:23 And you know, it can be as exciting as you want it to be. If, and it's fine if it's just a piece of legal writing as well.
13:48:29 And just be interested in it and know it's coming into the interview.
13:48:33 Great. And a bit of a follow-up. I think you already answered this. But someone asked if you don't have any close relationships with law professors, would it be sufficient to provide letters of wreck from an attorney that they worked with before law school.
13:48:48 You know, we're a judge that they interned with or clerked with or something like that.
13:48:52 And I think he sort of answered in the affirmative. That would still be valuable, right?
13:48:57 I don't, I definitely think so. I mean, I think you wanna get, recommendations, from people who know you in different aspects.
13:49:07 A law school professor would be great if they actually got to know you, but if all they know of you is that you got an A in terms that might not be enough to sort of say why, you know, they recommend you without reservations to the court.
13:49:24 And so, you know, and that's something that you might want to think about, in terms of getting to know your law school professors that you most professors usually have office hours, drop in sessions and that's something that you might wanna invest some time in to let them get to know you.
13:49:41 I myself am an introvert, so I'm not booking out there to make connections. But if somebody comes into my office, I'm happy to sit down with them and chat.
13:49:51 So that's just something. As a professional that you might wanna think about doing, overall.
13:50:04 But, you know, as, I think Christina and Tenieri said, like having somebody who really knows you.
13:50:05 Is better and than somebody who you happen to get an A in their class on.
13:50:08 Great, thank you so much. I'm gonna talk very briefly about internships and I know someone asked about them.
13:50:15 And again, I'm gonna leave my information in the chat. So if you follow questions on that, please do email me.
13:50:22 But I do want to mention obviously we have internship opportunities here, as Christina mentioned. That's one of the roles of most of the law clerks here as well that they supervise interns.
13:50:30 We host them year round. Right now, if you were to look online, we're doing our hiring for the upcoming summer and fall, although to be very candid, that's that's almost about through.
13:50:41 So I think you're for people watching now, probably your next opportunity to apply would be. Applying in the fall for the spring.
13:50:50 But we offer internships. We do offer them remotely depending on the justice preference.
13:50:57 Most of them tend to be in person. But if you, you know, go to a different law school and you're very interested in interning here, please don't let that stop you from applying.
13:51:04 And they open as early as your one L. Summer. So that is an early opportunity to get familiar with the court, the work at the court.
13:51:13 And the application information again, that's also on our website, which if you did want to look at it now, that information, those requirements are the same.
13:51:18 So the materials that you need, you know, cover letter, your transcript and a writing sample are pretty much the same.
13:51:26 And I think for the most part the tips on applying are the same. You know, you want to make sure you're picking your strongest writing sample.
13:51:33 By the time you apply if you're applying as a one L for the summer, everyone will have a writing sample from their legal writing course that I think almost everyone does one all year.
13:51:44 I don't think I've encountered a student who hasn't had that required course.
13:51:47 So that is just fine to submit or maybe you've done some legal work prior to law school and you have a different writing sample that you can use.
13:51:54 All of that is welcome. So I wanna take our final time here to open it up to the Q&A.
13:52:00 We didn't get to before. And somebody had asked of Christina and Generi, if you can talk a little bit about What's your work life balance?
13:52:08 You know, what while you clerked here at the court and maybe what a typical work week looks like for you.
13:52:15 I mean, I can start. I I think each chambers is different. So I'm just gonna speak for Justice George's chambers.
13:52:22 He encourages us to take care of our mental health. So, some of the cases that, we work with are really hard and, it's important to recognize when it's just getting too much and be able to take a step back.
13:52:39 So I think, in this regard, my cochlear, Keeley and I are very blessed because we have a judge who, not only understands that, but he also wants us to be well.
13:52:48 And to be able to put forth our best product work product ever. And I, I think My work, I wouldn't say that I'm overloaded.
13:53:00 It's busy. We have a lot of work, but at the same time I'm perfectly able to sort of like manage my personal life which I do have like anyone else and my work life as well.
13:53:11 But again, each chambers is different, but, we do spend a lot of time together.
13:53:16 Clerics do, hang out. We socialize. We go out for, happy hour and, I think everyone's pretty, happy isn't the same, is in the same position as here.
13:53:31 Yeah.
13:53:28 Great, Chanieri, anything to add? Maybe contrast or? Once that's a clerk versus as a
13:53:35 What a contrast. Let's say that as a clerk, I would echo Christina. It was.
13:53:41 Busy but steady. You sort of knew when your deadlines were coming up, their starting task.
13:53:46 That clerks do that are always do like around the same time each month. I sort of each week had a flow like you knew the first week of the month was usually gonna be sitting.
13:53:58 So that's gonna be all arguments happening. You knew the last week of the month was probably gonna be busy because you're helping your justice.
13:54:02 Get ready for sitting and then you know certain other tasks do like the second and third. So I would say it's busy.
13:54:09 I don't know. If I had this misnomer coming in, but I've definitely at least heard it in law school that, courts tend to have more.
13:54:18 Time because you're sitting and you're thinking, I would not go into this with the idea that You're just gonna like as much as I love to the sitting and thinking part.
13:54:27 I wouldn't say that you're just like sitting in a chair staring out the window and like thinking deep thoughts about the law all the time.
13:54:33 It is busy. It's important work. I mean, this is. Of Massachusetts.
13:54:39 Of how people are going to engage with these super important areas of their life. So like thorough research.
13:54:44 Is needed. A lot of writing. I think before I sent a first draft of something, I probably wrote.
13:54:50 4 or 5 drafts myself. And so I found it busy. I am busier now. It's a little bit more chaotic.
13:54:59 I do not know what's going to happen each day. So. Okay, you know, such as such as life, I knew what I was getting into.
13:55:09 So I would say that was the contrast. Busy but steady as a clerk. Complete chaos as as a junior associate.
13:55:14 Yeah. Great, thank you. Just as oneland, I there's a question that I would like to direct to you.
13:55:24 So our justices looking for geographical ties to Massachusetts in the applications.
13:55:29 Meeting only for myself, no. I'm not at all. I mean, being from Massachusetts is not a negative.
13:55:37 I don't wanna suggest that, but I'm not looking for somebody who is from Massachusetts or intends to stay from to in Massachusetts.
13:55:47 I'm truly looking for somebody who can be part of the Winland family, who will add humor or interest and hard work, to, that endeavor. So that's what I'm looking for.
13:56:02 And as somebody who, you know, I was born in New Orleans. I grew up in Chicago.
13:56:07 I spent some time in California. I was in New York City. And then finally landed in the Commonwealth as my home.
13:56:13 I completely understand, people looking at different places. And I think Chaniri, you said this, it's really valuable.
13:56:22 I don't want anybody to sort of overlook this. Your year of clerking or 2 years or whatever it is is an opportunity to do something different.
13:56:32 And, part of that could be exploring a different place. And, so sort of I, and I understand that and I think that, makes a candidate really quite interesting.
13:56:46 You know, that said, having come from Massachusetts, it's not a negative. I'm just saying I'm not, I'm not looking for somebody who has to stay here.
13:56:52 Great. And I have a I have another question for you. How do you evaluate? Resume experience that reflects either prior judicial internships, externships, or even other clerkships before applying here.
13:57:05 Well, you can guarantee that I will call your judge. And find out what that experience was.
13:57:14 And find out what that experience was. That's, you know, there are your judge, and find out, what that experience was.
13:57:20 That's, you know, there are not that many judges and we tend to know each other.
13:57:22 And so I will, you know, reach out and see what that experience was like. So it does give me and I idea that you understand the job.
13:57:30 You know, You can't walk away from the seminar without saying it's a lot of reading and writing.
13:57:36 Which can be quiet work. And, and so you need to come with that expectation that you're not going to be on trial all the time, right?
13:57:46 You know, you're not gonna be going in and hearing opening statements and all the all the dynamics that goes to that.
13:57:51 So somebody who's done an internship or an internship with a judge has has an understanding of the various levels of the judiciary.
13:57:59 So that's an interest to me.
13:58:01 Excellent. Thank you so much. And actually we are right on time and we fortunately got to almost all of our questions.
13:58:09 The few remaining I'm going to put my name in the chat as well as The law clerk hiring email.
13:58:19 Sorry. Should have a. I'm gonna type this after because my brain can't do 2 things at once.
13:58:25 The few questions we left unanswered, I would just recommend, if you look at the website, it should have the answers for you just on these few last details.
13:58:34 Of questions on applying. But if not, if you can't find that answer for some reason, please do.
13:58:37 Reach out to me and I am happy to answer them. I want to thank all of our panelists.
13:58:44 Heartily, thank you so much for sharing your thoughts, for being candid with everyone on the zoom and just really for giving us that great insight into what it's like to work here and how to strengthen your application.
13:58:55 So thank you everyone. Thank you all of our attendees. It was a really great webinar. Thank you so much.
13:59:01 Thank you.
13:59:03 Thank you.
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